A letter taken from a newspaper

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Yes but Macedonians named after Greek names ALL the cities they built or
renamed !!
Thus make your choice: Plovdiv or Philippoupolis ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece





"Ilinden" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote: ...
In the American constitution it states that the American government is not
allowed to overthrow a legitimate foreign government. So who gave to right
to Uncle Sam to invade Iraq and overthrow its government? U.S.A. is the
world policeman and a super power I guess they can do anything they like.
There are many countries that do not like the policy of the U.S.A. But
nobody is going to invade the U.S.A. So why not let the Iraqi people solve
their own problems. So Mr. Bush do not interfere in the internal affairs of
another country and clean up your own backyard. Read your own constitution
first then do what it says. I don't agree with Saddam Hussein's politics
but it is obvious that Bush was only interested in the oil for himself.

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Nitwit Jovanche how many times I have to tell you bre tikvar.
Plovdiv: The name of the city in Bulgaria is of Thracian origin, and
represents Pulpudava,. The Hellenes later changed the Thracian name as
Philippopolis. The Romans, however, called the settlement Trimontium,
'three hills;.
Ilinden the IDIOT

Mwrh skrofa,
How many times I asked you to name the Hellenic tribe, his King and army
leader that named the city Philippoupolis and when ??
Aisixtir !! Idiot !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Yes but Macedonians named after Greek names ALL the cities they built or
renamed !!
Thus make your choice: Plovdiv or Philippoupolis ??
Yannis
Macedonia, FTCOG
In the American constitution it states that the American government is not
allowed to overthrow a legitimate foreign government. So who gave to right
to Uncle Sam to invade Iraq and overthrow its government? U.S.A. is the
world policeman and a super power I guess they can do anything they like.
There are many countries that do not like the policy of the U.S.A. But
nobody is going to invade the U.S.A. So why not let the Iraqi people solve
their own problems. So Mr. Bush do not interfere in the internal affairs of
another country and clean up your own backyard. Read your own

constitution

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
first then do what it says. I don't agree with Saddam Hussein's politics
but it is obvious that Bush was only interested in the oil for himself.

[June R Harton]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Nitwit Jovanche how many times I have to tell you bre tikvar.
Plovdiv: The name of the city in Bulgaria is of Thracian origin, and
represents Pulpudava,. The Hellenes later changed the Thracian name as
Philippopolis. The Romans, however, called the settlement Trimontium,
'three hills;.
Ilinden the IDIOT

Mwrh skrofa,
How many times I asked you to name the Hellenic tribe, his King and army
leader that named the city Philippoupolis and when ??
Aisixtir !! Idiot !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

You are correct, he is completely an idiot. He states Hellenes
changed the name and the Hellene who did it was King Philip
of the Macedonian Greeks! So again ilindra shoots himself
in the foot where his brain is.




from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"bt" <***@bitola.i-p.com> wrote:
..............................................

Don't Discriminate, who are you tell someone who they are and what they

are.

Macedonian's do not consider themselves Greek and have nothing in common.
Dr???????

I am Macedonian. Thus you are not. So temporarily, until you find a proper
named I call you SlavoSkopians.
What is Macedonian on you ? Are you proud of that famous campaign that
Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World? The
campaign that made Macedonians known to the World?
What is not Bulgarian on you ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
I am Macedonian. Thus you are not. So temporarily, until you find a proper
named I call you SlavoSkopians.
What is Macedonian on you ? Are you proud of that famous campaign that
Macedonians did to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World?

The

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
campaign that made Macedonians known to the World?
What is not Bulgarian on you ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

You are obviously Greek, not Macedonian, what is this term "

SlavoSkopians

"? you seem to use,
it absolutely means nothing. I take it your in one of these Greek

neo-Nazi

groups.

I am Macedonian that is Greek.
SlavoSkopians are the Slavic (=west Bulgarian) speaking people of Skopje
and Skopje environment. Those lost souls of the Balkans after brutal and
many slaps by history are totally fool.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"bt" <***@bitola.i-p.com> wrote:
.....................................

It is these inconsiderate statementst like "you are not Macedonians"
that create an ill will against FYROM. I will not use the term
"Slavoskopjan" (and never have), but it is persons like you with the
statements that you make that create this reaction. Mirsikoff himself
used the term "Slavomacedonians" repeatedly -maybe not in the
sanitized versions you got- understanding that Macedonia was a
multiracial and multiethnic place. To even assume that only those who
are Slavs are to be called "Macedonians" is funny and ridiculous to
the extreme.
ADR

So its considerate to call Macedonians "Slavoskopjan"? what is this term?
Skopje is a city, and what about the other cities and towns in Republic

of

Macedonia, are they also " Slavoskopjan"? or are they just "slavoOhrid"?
"slavoTetevo" etc etc. Why dont you except the fact that Macedonians
are form the Republic of Macedonia. Thats why there is allot if haterd

in

this world with people like you arround.

Because the term Macedonian was derived by a Greek trine before -8c to
describe itself and its descents. This very term still being used by those
Macedonians' ancestors that live in Greece and still speaking and spreading
Greek Language and Civilization to the World. There is nothing Macedonian
on you ! You cannot be Macedonians and ashamed for that campaign that
Macedonians made to spread Greekness to the World and that determines
Macedonians. You cannot violate our self determination right.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

<Anastassios Retzios> wrote:

Despite we went through this issue many times in the past, lets make it one
more.

Dear Panayiotis,
I disagree with both you and Yiannis on this because it is simply not
sensible to call these people "Slavoskopjans". First of all, Skopje

Stupidity.
Both me and Panayiotis answered to this point. But lets do it once again.

is just on city and second, a substantial minority of the citizens
are not slavs. Why don't you use the more descriptive but legally

This is true. But I don't care and I don't refer to the AlboSkopians. Only
my 'banner' "Macedonia for the Macedonians and Skopje for the
SlavoSkopians' may cause trouble to the AlboSkopians. But if I am asked I
will explain my position.

accurate term "citizens of FYROM" if you do not want to use the term
"Macedonian" at all? I personally have no problem with the term

That is Fyromian ? I think it is not accurate. Apart SlavoSkopians there
are Albanians, and other peoples there.
FYROM's Slavs is more accurate. If they declare they want this last term I
will adopt it.
( Just as I adopted the term Macedonian for me after Galinitsa's hint
!!!!!!!!!!! )

"slavonic Macedonian" but I know that Yiannis has. I think that this

The term is wrong. It presupposes the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity
that, if it exists, it can be ONLY Greek. Just like terms Hellene or
Ionian. In contrary the term Macedonian Slavs that international media use
for SlavoSkopians is more accurate.
Given the fact that SlavoSkopians reject the term Slav from their name it
is as humiliating as the term SlavoSkopian is.

is the shape of the final compromise or possibly very close to it. I
know that both you and Yiannis are not thinking in terms of a solution
but I suggest that you should start thinking not of what is desirable
to you only but what is desirable to both parties of this dispute (the
lowest common denominator that we can all agree on). I would love to
have an answer to this.
ADR

What shall be desirable by both parties is truth: SlavoSkopians are related
to the Macedonians as much as Turks, Bulgarians, Jews, .... and other
peoples that were living sometime in Macedonia and now are not. None of
them wants to be named Macedonian anything, except for expansion reasons.
Further, the point is, and you agree on this, that the term Macedonia is
geographic. Thus it cannot be used as a main name of an ethnicity or
language or citizenship. If SlavoSkopians are allowed to use the term
Macedonia in their country's name, or if this very name is not convenient
they will ask to name their language and ethnicity Macedonian. In this case
the term Macedonian will be not just geographic any more. Unacceptable.
If they name their country lets say Upper Macedonia they will name their
language and ethnicity and maybe citizenship Macedonian. In this case the
term Macedonian will loose or not its geographic meaning??
The same thing will happen if names like "Central Balkan Democracy" will be
adopted.
Thus, if SlavoSkopians want peace and friendly relations with all their
neighbors they shall adopt a new country's, ethnic, language's and
citizenship's name: Maketja, Pelagonia, Dardania, Vardaria, Velikja,
Peonia, ...
If they insist to be named Macedonian anything, it would be very easy for
people like me to set up the fire of counteractive behave towards
SlavoSkopians.

So, I have a question for you ( and Panayiotis and June and any other
participant). I set this question few times to you but you avoided to
answer.
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name ( Vardarska
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning or
not ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Jovanche the Albanogreki got more brains than you bre Turche.

Sweet kisses my chum!
I love to see you angry !!
Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Despite we went through this issue many times in the past, lets make it one
more.

[unknown]

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +0200, "Yannis the Macedonian"

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Despite we went through this issue many times in the past, lets make it one
more.

Dear Panayiotis,
I disagree with both you and Yiannis on this because it is simply not
sensible to call these people "Slavoskopjans". First of all, Skopje

Stupidity.
Both me and Panayiotis answered to this point. But lets do it once again.

That you have answered is besides the point. It was not an adequate
answer

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

is just on city and second, a substantial minority of the citizens
are not slavs. Why don't you use the more descriptive but legally

This is true. But I don't care and I don't refer to the AlboSkopians. Only
my 'banner' "Macedonia for the Macedonians and Skopje for the
SlavoSkopians' may cause trouble to the AlboSkopians. But if I am asked I
will explain my position.

You do not have to explain anything. Your position is certainly
offensive and meant to be offensive.

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

accurate term "citizens of FYROM" if you do not want to use the term
"Macedonian" at all? I personally have no problem with the term

That is Fyromian ? I think it is not accurate. Apart SlavoSkopians there
are Albanians, and other peoples there.
FYROM's Slavs is more accurate. If they declare they want this last term I
will adopt it.
( Just as I adopted the term Macedonian for me after Galinitsa's hint
!!!!!!!!!!! )

The term "citizens of FYROM" includes all nationalities residing there

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

"slavonic Macedonian" but I know that Yiannis has. I think that this

The term is wrong. It presupposes the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity
that, if it exists, it can be ONLY Greek. Just like terms Hellene or
Ionian. In contrary the term Macedonian Slavs that international media use
for SlavoSkopians is more accurate.
Given the fact that SlavoSkopians reject the term Slav from their name it
is as humiliating as the term SlavoSkopian is.

Your position is clearly wrong. For almost 14 centuries, Greeks were
not the only inhabitants of Macedonia and it is about time you come to
grips with this. This is why Macedonia is and should remain a
geographic term, not an ethnic one. By claiming an ethnic or "tribal"
definition here, you are playing in the hands of the Macedonists. You
cannot see it, but the logic is obvious. If one ethnicity that
resided in Macedonia can insist on the right to monopolize the name,
then why not another?

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

is the shape of the final compromise or possibly very close to it. I
know that both you and Yiannis are not thinking in terms of a solution
but I suggest that you should start thinking not of what is desirable
to you only but what is desirable to both parties of this dispute (the
lowest common denominator that we can all agree on). I would love to
have an answer to this.
ADR

What shall be desirable by both parties is truth: SlavoSkopians are related
to the Macedonians as much as Turks, Bulgarians, Jews, .... and other
peoples that were living sometime in Macedonia and now are not. None of
them wants to be named Macedonian anything, except for expansion reasons.
Further, the point is, and you agree on this, that the term Macedonia is
geographic. Thus it cannot be used as a main name of an ethnicity or
language or citizenship. If SlavoSkopians are allowed to use the term
Macedonia in their country's name, or if this very name is not convenient
they will ask to name their language and ethnicity Macedonian. In this case
the term Macedonian will be not just geographic any more. Unacceptable.
If they name their country lets say Upper Macedonia they will name their
language and ethnicity and maybe citizenship Macedonian. In this case the
term Macedonian will loose or not its geographic meaning??
The same thing will happen if names like "Central Balkan Democracy" will be
adopted.
Thus, if SlavoSkopians want peace and friendly relations with all their
neighbors they shall adopt a new country's, ethnic, language's and
citizenship's name: Maketja, Pelagonia, Dardania, Vardaria, Velikja,
Peonia, ...
If they insist to be named Macedonian anything, it would be very easy for
people like me to set up the fire of counteractive behave towards
SlavoSkopians.
So, I have a question for you ( and Panayiotis and June and any other
participant). I set this question few times to you but you avoided to
answer.
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name ( Vardarska
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning or
not ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yiannis, all the above is nonsense. To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

Now, on the basis of this, why don't you think more constructively
what will be a solution that we both (Greece and FYROM) can agree on?
I think that this would be a better use of your reasoning power than
posting time and time again that the ancient Macedonians gave their
cities Greek names. Of course they did. This is patently obvious.
They also had Greek names. This is also patently obvious. Has that
affected the thinking of a single Macedonist? I think that it is much
more important for the Greeks to come to some kind of a concensus as
to which is an acceptable solution because this will be the main
discussion going forward. The one among ourselves. And dreams are
not good substitutes for real policies.

ADR

[Yannis the Macedonian]

<Anastassios D. Retzios> wrote:.........................

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
The term is wrong. It presupposes the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity
that, if it exists, it can be ONLY Greek. Just like terms Hellene or
Ionian. In contrary the term Macedonian Slavs that international media use
for SlavoSkopians is more accurate.
Given the fact that SlavoSkopians reject the term Slav from their name it
is as humiliating as the term SlavoSkopian is.

Your position is clearly wrong. For almost 14 centuries, Greeks were
not the only inhabitants of Macedonia and it is about time you come to
grips with this. This is why Macedonia is and should remain a
geographic term, not an ethnic one. By claiming an ethnic or "tribal"
definition here, you are playing in the hands of the Macedonists. You
cannot see it, but the logic is obvious. If one ethnicity that
resided in Macedonia can insist on the right to monopolize the name,
then why not another?

I agree, thus I am not wrong. I wrote above that IF the term is about to
have an ethnic meaning this shall be only Greek. I am not the one that
promotes the ethnic meaning of the term Macedonian.
Anyway it is really ONE ethnicity that derived the term Macedonian and made
it famous and glorious to the World: The Greeks.

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
What shall be desirable by both parties is truth: SlavoSkopians are related
to the Macedonians as much as Turks, Bulgarians, Jews, .... and other
peoples that were living sometime in Macedonia and now are not. None of
them wants to be named Macedonian anything, except for expansion reasons.
Further, the point is, and you agree on this, that the term Macedonia is
geographic. Thus it cannot be used as a main name of an ethnicity or
language or citizenship. If SlavoSkopians are allowed to use the term
Macedonia in their country's name, or if this very name is not convenient
they will ask to name their language and ethnicity Macedonian. In this case
the term Macedonian will be not just geographic any more. Unacceptable.
If they name their country lets say Upper Macedonia they will name their
language and ethnicity and maybe citizenship Macedonian. In this case the
term Macedonian will loose or not its geographic meaning??
The same thing will happen if names like "Central Balkan Democracy" will be
adopted.
Thus, if SlavoSkopians want peace and friendly relations with all their
neighbors they shall adopt a new country's, ethnic, language's and
citizenship's name: Maketja, Pelagonia, Dardania, Vardaria, Velikja,
Peonia, ...
If they insist to be named Macedonian anything, it would be very easy for
people like me to set up the fire of counteractive behave towards
SlavoSkopians.
So, I have a question for you ( and Panayiotis and June and any other
participant). I set this question few times to you but you avoided to
answer.
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name ( Vardarska
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning or
not ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yiannis, all the above is nonsense. To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

If Vardarska Rep is laughable then imagine how laughable "RoM" or any
Macedonia is !! What is Macedonian there? What is not Bulgarian there ??
I wrote it again and I repeat it: The name issue is ( shall be ) for as
Greeks as important as our independence. Thus the question you set above is
equal to the question "what we Greeks shall do for our independence??"

Post by unknown
Now, on the basis of this, why don't you think more constructively
what will be a solution that we both (Greece and FYROM) can agree on?

Yes. Based on truth.

Post by unknown
I think that this would be a better use of your reasoning power than
posting time and time again that the ancient Macedonians gave their
cities Greek names. Of course they did. This is patently obvious.
They also had Greek names. This is also patently obvious. Has that
affected the thinking of a single Macedonist? I think that it is much

I am sure it has. SlavoSkopian propagandists are paid by poor SlavoSkopian
people that is not allowed to access the truth. This is the reason they
had success while Underground's era. But SlavoSkopian people are not stupid
or brainless. Soon or later the majority of then will see the truth.

Post by unknown
more important for the Greeks to come to some kind of a concensus as
to which is an acceptable solution because this will be the main
discussion going forward. The one among ourselves. And dreams are
not good substitutes for real policies.
ADR

The building you are attempting to raise is fake and baseless because you
avoided, apparently intentionally, to answer to my last question. Your
silence was very LOUD, indeed !!
The solution you like most is the one that preserves the geographic meaning
of the term Macedonian right?
So, I ask you once again:
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name ( Vardarska
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning? Yes
or
not ??

Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston Elliniko
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

Anyway I wrote long time ago that the names of SlavoSkopian ethnicity,
language and citizenship are, for me, more important than the name of the
country. Thus I could accept a name like GornoMacedonia for the country
ONLY if their ethnicity, language and citizenship are not any-Macedonian.
I know this is not easy. Thus Maketja for everything.
SlavoSkopians could very easily do what Greece and many other countries on
earth do: To have internal name Macedonia and Macedonian and an external
name like Maketja and Maketjan. Just like Greece: we write in ALL internal
references Hellas, Hellene and in ALL international references Greece and
Greek. Even in our passports our citizenship says "helleniki" in Greek and
'Greek' in English !!! Like Finland-Suomi,
Helvetia-Swizzera-Switzerland-Suisse, Holland-Netherlands,
Georgia-Sakartvelo, ....
But they don't want peace with us. Maybe they need a slap to come into
their senses.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Panayiotis]

======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================

"Yannis the Macedonian" <***@vip.gr> wrote in message news:***@news.sch.gr...
.
.

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Thus Maketja for everything.
SlavoSkopians could very easily do what Greece and many other countries on
earth do: To have internal name Macedonia and Macedonian and an external
name like Maketja and Maketjan. Just like Greece: we write in ALL internal
references Hellas, Hellene and in ALL international references Greece and
Greek. Even in our passports our citizenship says "helleniki" in Greek and
'Greek' in English !!! Like Finland-Suomi,
Helvetia-Swizzera-Switzerland-Suisse, Holland-Netherlands,
Georgia-Sakartvelo, ....

Yannis,
Wrong, wrong!
Have you heard of any country called Suomi having irredentist intentions on
Finland,
or Helvetia on Switzerland, or (silly) Greece against Hellas? And I don't
mean only land "intentions".
We must avoid dubious solutions. Straight mutual solutions are best.

Panayiotis

[gogu]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston Elliniko
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

Kai poios einai aytos poy perigrafeis re Yanni?
Symfwnw mazi soy se polla giati kai egw sthn Makedonia zw, alla den nomizw
oti o Anastasios einai kati
tetoio!
Ektos an ekana la8os kai den anaferesai se ayton, opote kai soy zhtw
sygknwmh...

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston Elliniko
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

Kai poios einai aytos poy perigrafeis re Yanni?
Symfwnw mazi soy se polla giati kai egw sthn Makedonia zw, alla den nomizw
oti o Anastasios einai kati tetoio!
Ektos an ekana la8os kai den anaferesai se ayton, opote kai soy zhtw
sygknwmh...

Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou einai,
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw. Oxi
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Anastassios Retzios]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston

Elliniko

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

Kai poios einai aytos poy perigrafeis re Yanni?
Symfwnw mazi soy se polla giati kai egw sthn Makedonia zw, alla den

nomizw

Post by gogu
oti o Anastasios einai kati tetoio!
Ektos an ekana la8os kai den anaferesai se ayton, opote kai soy zhtw
sygknwmh...

Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou einai,
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw. Oxi
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Of course you are entitled to your position but so far I have not
heard from you a solid proposal for a solution. You can all vent and
analyze all we want, but the end we need to arrive as a nation to a
solution that would be acceptable to us. And that solution should
take into account the means that we utilize to obtain it. I believe
that negotiations, diplomatic pressure, clear communications to the
world and possible trade sanctions are the only way forward. I just do
not think that "slaps" or "sabre rattling" are feasible.

ADR

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"Anastassios Retzios" <***@home.com> wrote:
...........................................................

Post by Anastassios Retzios

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou einai,
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw. Oxi
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Of course you are entitled to your position but so far I have not
heard from you a solid proposal for a solution. You can all vent and
analyze all we want, but the end we need to arrive as a nation to a
solution that would be acceptable to us. And that solution should
take into account the means that we utilize to obtain it. I believe
that negotiations, diplomatic pressure, clear communications to the
world and possible trade sanctions are the only way forward. I just do
not think that "slaps" or "sabre rattling" are feasible.
ADR

I described the solution I like. From best to worst:
1. a non Macedonian name: Velikja , Krushevo, Vardar, ... ( not Central
Balkan Rep. In this case SlavoSkopians will name their language Macedonian.
This is stupid and against logic, science and common sense).
2. a name related to Macedonia, but not Macedonia itself, for country,
language, ethnicity and citizenship of FYROPseudoMacedonia: Maketja,
Pelagonia,
3. a one word name containing the term Macedonia like GornoMacedonia. But,
because is a long word, I would worry of the possibility to be cut by
English speakers to something more Macedonian.
4. Any other solution shall be rejected.

Slap was embargo or Albanian rebelion for FYROPM, as well as 1922 for
Greece.

You didn't answer to my question.

A more constructive discussion would be the one about the attributes of a
solution.
What would be the characteristics of a name acceptable by Greece?
Well if you want my thoughts here:
1. The name shall preserve indispensably the geographic meaning of the term
Macedonian.
2. The term Macedonian shall not be the name of ethnicity, language,
citizenship, or country of the SlavoSkopians.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[gogu]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston

Elliniko

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

Kai poios einai aytos poy perigrafeis re Yanni?
Symfwnw mazi soy se polla giati kai egw sthn Makedonia zw, alla den

nomizw

Post by gogu
oti o Anastasios einai kati tetoio!
Ektos an ekana la8os kai den anaferesai se ayton, opote kai soy zhtw
sygknwmh...

Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou einai,
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw. Oxi
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))

Pi8anws.
Gianni, "gnwrizomaste" arketa xronia nomizw kai me ksereis opws kai egw se
kserw edw mesa:-)
8a soy pw loipon oti kai egw exw kapoies diafwnies me ton Anastasio alla
nomizw oti prepei na sebomaste (*oxi* nte kai kala na symfwnoyme,
bebaiws...) thn apopsh toy alloy.
Se aythn thn bash loipon -kai ef'oson to sxolio soy htan pragmati gia ton
Anastasio kai den ekana la8os- nomizw oti h frash soy ksefeygei ligo apo
ayto poy 8a legame ektimhsh enos sobaroy synomilhth mas... Nomizw oti elex8h
en brasmw psyxhs kai den antanakla pragmati esena:-)
Kasanalew oti den 8elw na soy ypodeiksw ti na peis h ti na grapseis, just my
two euro-cents:-)

An kamia fora exeis oreksh gia koybentoyla kai yparxei xronos, grapse moy na
bre8oyme na pioyme ena krasi!
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou einai,
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw. Oxi
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))

Pi8anws.
Gianni, "gnwrizomaste" arketa xronia nomizw kai me ksereis opws kai egw se
kserw edw mesa:-)
8a soy pw loipon oti kai egw exw kapoies diafwnies me ton Anastasio alla
nomizw oti prepei na sebomaste (*oxi* nte kai kala na symfwnoyme,
bebaiws...) thn apopsh toy alloy.
Se aythn thn bash loipon -kai ef'oson to sxolio soy htan pragmati gia ton
Anastasio kai den ekana la8os- nomizw oti h frash soy ksefeygei ligo apo
ayto poy 8a legame ektimhsh enos sobaroy synomilhth mas... Nomizw oti elex8h
en brasmw psyxhs kai den antanakla pragmati esena:-)

nai se ola !
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Post by gogu
Kasanalew oti den 8elw na soy ypodeiksw ti na peis h ti na grapseis, just my
two euro-cents:-)
An kamia fora exeis oreksh gia koybentoyla kai yparxei xronos, grapse moy na
bre8oyme na pioyme ena krasi!
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[gogu]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Pistevw oti den prepei na emplakoun kai alloi sth filonikia mas pou

einai,

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
nomizw, xronia, me e3arseis san afthn.
An omws o Tasos 8elei na apanthsw epi ths ousias 8a to kanw.
Etsi ki' alloiws 8elw na dhlwsw oti o Tasos einai poly xrhsimos edw.

Oxi

Post by gogu

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
omws sto 'dia tayta' alla mono sto 'dioti' :))

Pi8anws.
Gianni, "gnwrizomaste" arketa xronia nomizw kai me ksereis opws kai egw

se

Post by gogu
kserw edw mesa:-)
8a soy pw loipon oti kai egw exw kapoies diafwnies me ton Anastasio alla
nomizw oti prepei na sebomaste (*oxi* nte kai kala na symfwnoyme,
bebaiws...) thn apopsh toy alloy.
Se aythn thn bash loipon -kai ef'oson to sxolio soy htan pragmati gia ton
Anastasio kai den ekana la8os- nomizw oti h frash soy ksefeygei ligo apo
ayto poy 8a legame ektimhsh enos sobaroy synomilhth mas... Nomizw oti

elex8h

Post by gogu
en brasmw psyxhs kai den antanakla pragmati esena:-)

nai se ola !

:-)))
Xronia polla Yianni!
Elpizw na pernas thn giorth soy me xara me toys filoys soy kai toys dikoys
soy!
Para to gegonos oti eksw peftoyn aftia apo to kryo :-)))
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Post by gogu
Kasanalew oti den 8elw na soy ypodeiksw ti na peis h ti na grapseis,

just

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
my

Post by gogu
two euro-cents:-)
An kamia fora exeis oreksh gia koybentoyla kai yparxei xronos, grapse

moy

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
na

Post by gogu
bre8oyme na pioyme ena krasi!

[Anastassios Retzios]

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
<Anastassios D. Retzios> wrote:.........................

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
The term is wrong. It presupposes the existence of a Macedonian

ethnicity

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
that, if it exists, it can be ONLY Greek. Just like terms Hellene or
Ionian. In contrary the term Macedonian Slavs that international media

use

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
for SlavoSkopians is more accurate.
Given the fact that SlavoSkopians reject the term Slav from their name

it

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
is as humiliating as the term SlavoSkopian is.

Your position is clearly wrong. For almost 14 centuries, Greeks were
not the only inhabitants of Macedonia and it is about time you come to
grips with this. This is why Macedonia is and should remain a
geographic term, not an ethnic one. By claiming an ethnic or "tribal"
definition here, you are playing in the hands of the Macedonists. You
cannot see it, but the logic is obvious. If one ethnicity that
resided in Macedonia can insist on the right to monopolize the name,
then why not another?

I agree, thus I am not wrong. I wrote above that IF the term is about to
have an ethnic meaning this shall be only Greek. I am not the one that
promotes the ethnic meaning of the term Macedonian.
Anyway it is really ONE ethnicity that derived the term Macedonian and made
it famous and glorious to the World: The Greeks.

OK, I suppose

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
What shall be desirable by both parties is truth: SlavoSkopians are

related

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
to the Macedonians as much as Turks, Bulgarians, Jews, .... and other
peoples that were living sometime in Macedonia and now are not. None of
them wants to be named Macedonian anything, except for expansion

reasons.

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Further, the point is, and you agree on this, that the term Macedonia is
geographic. Thus it cannot be used as a main name of an ethnicity or
language or citizenship. If SlavoSkopians are allowed to use the term
Macedonia in their country's name, or if this very name is not

convenient

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
they will ask to name their language and ethnicity Macedonian. In this

case

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
the term Macedonian will be not just geographic any more. Unacceptable.
If they name their country lets say Upper Macedonia they will name their
language and ethnicity and maybe citizenship Macedonian. In this case

the

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
term Macedonian will loose or not its geographic meaning??
The same thing will happen if names like "Central Balkan Democracy" will

be

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
adopted.
Thus, if SlavoSkopians want peace and friendly relations with all their
neighbors they shall adopt a new country's, ethnic, language's and
citizenship's name: Maketja, Pelagonia, Dardania, Vardaria, Velikja,
Peonia, ...
If they insist to be named Macedonian anything, it would be very easy

for

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
people like me to set up the fire of counteractive behave towards
SlavoSkopians.
So, I have a question for you ( and Panayiotis and June and any other
participant). I set this question few times to you but you avoided to
answer.
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name (

Vardarska

Post by unknown

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning or
not ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Yiannis, all the above is nonsense. To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

If Vardarska Rep is laughable then imagine how laughable "RoM" or any
Macedonia is !! What is Macedonian there? What is not Bulgarian there ??
I wrote it again and I repeat it: The name issue is ( shall be ) for as
Greeks as important as our independence. Thus the question you set above is
equal to the question "what we Greeks shall do for our independence??"

Post by unknown
Now, on the basis of this, why don't you think more constructively
what will be a solution that we both (Greece and FYROM) can agree on?

Yes. Based on truth.

This is an idealistic position that does not reflect reality and you
know it. What is truth for you is a lie for somebody else. It would
be a great day on earth when we can all decide what truth is. Not
even Jesus could answer this!

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by unknown
I think that this would be a better use of your reasoning power than
posting time and time again that the ancient Macedonians gave their
cities Greek names. Of course they did. This is patently obvious.
They also had Greek names. This is also patently obvious. Has that
affected the thinking of a single Macedonist? I think that it is much

I am sure it has. SlavoSkopian propagandists are paid by poor SlavoSkopian
people that is not allowed to access the truth. This is the reason they
had success while Underground's era. But SlavoSkopian people are not stupid
or brainless. Soon or later the majority of then will see the truth.

Maybe but it all depends on whose feeding them information. If we do
not have any access to information sources in FYROM, our opinion would
not be heard. The Macedonists are putting much more effort on the Web
than we are, much more. They control a lot of the information flow
right now and I cannot see that changing soon. They appear to be
"hungrier" than us.

Post by Yannis the Macedonian

Post by unknown
more important for the Greeks to come to some kind of a concensus as
to which is an acceptable solution because this will be the main
discussion going forward. The one among ourselves. And dreams are
not good substitutes for real policies.
ADR

The building you are attempting to raise is fake and baseless because you
avoided, apparently intentionally, to answer to my last question. Your
silence was very LOUD, indeed !!
The solution you like most is the one that preserves the geographic meaning
of the term Macedonian right?
If SlavoSkopians name their country after a non-Macedonian name ( Vardarska
Rep or something) but name their ethnicity, citizenship and language
Macedonian then the term Macedonian will loose its geographic meaning? Yes
or
not ??

The answer is irrelevant. First of all, if the Fyrom is name Vardar
Republic, the nationality of the citizens will automatically be
Vardarian. If the state utilizes the term "Macedonian" internally, it
would be no bother to us or to anybody else because this term cannot
be applied in official documents. As the whole world perceives
Macedonia to be a region, applying the term "Macedonian" in a place
called the Vardar Republic will soon appear as moronic and
unsustainable.

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Taso, to pio ili8io, eyteles, a8lio, potapo, prostyxo, eleeino, faulo,
tipotenio, malakismeno, e3eutelismeno, apodiopompaio proswpo ston Elliniko
politismo einai afto pou ta logia tou den einai syneph meta3y tous kai
kyriws me ta erga tou.

I would like you to elaborate on the meaning of this paragraphy

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Anyway I wrote long time ago that the names of SlavoSkopian ethnicity,
language and citizenship are, for me, more important than the name of the
country.

The opposite should be true. At the end, we cannot be intervening
continuously in the internal politics of FYROM. If the name of the
state changes, then this even will percolate internally and, for all
intends and purposes, the only Macedonia in existence would be the one
in Greece. This would be a clear win (which I think is impossible at
this time)

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Thus I could accept a name like GornoMacedonia for the country
ONLY if their ethnicity, language and citizenship are not any-Macedonian.
I know this is not easy. Thus Maketja for everything.
SlavoSkopians could very easily do what Greece and many other countries on
earth do: To have internal name Macedonia and Macedonian and an external
name like Maketja and Maketjan.

I am astounded. How is Greece doing this?

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
Just like Greece: we write in ALL internal
references Hellas, Hellene and in ALL international references Greece and
Greek. Even in our passports our citizenship says "helleniki" in Greek and
'Greek' in English !!! Like Finland-Suomi,
Helvetia-Swizzera-Switzerland-Suisse, Holland-Netherlands,
Georgia-Sakartvelo, ....

Hey, hold your horses. The alternate names of all these countries
(and Germany - Deutchland - Frankreich etc) were established over a
long period of time. Everybody who has half a brain knows that Greece
and Hellas are synonymous. All these names are highly specific to the
countries mentioned (there is no "cross"-naming here). And for your
information, neither your passport nor official references to our
country include the term "Greece". The country is so known in the
west and this is the title typically used journalistically or
literally as Germany is applied to Deutschland. These are naming
conventions steeped in history.

Post by Yannis the Macedonian
But they don't want peace with us. Maybe they need a slap to come into
their senses.

You are making assumptions here. I think that the vast majority of
the citizens of FYROM are not informed of our position nor do they
regularly hear "our voice". What good would a "slap" do?

ADR

[Panayiotis]

======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================

Post by unknown
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +0200, "Yannis the Macedonian"

.
.

Post by unknown
To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

ADR,
There are peaceful invasions, too. Ananga ke thei pithonte!

Panayiotis

[Anastassios Retzios]

Post by Panayiotis
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================

Post by unknown
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +0200, "Yannis the Macedonian"

.
.

Post by unknown
To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

ADR,
There are peaceful invasions, too. Ananga ke thei pithonte!
Panayiotis

Well, Panayiotis, if you can describe to me the peaceful invasion that
you have in mind, we may be able to agree. Unfortunately, I think
that Greece's leverage on FYROM is pretty limited. Of course, we
should stay our course, but unless we are prepared to negotiate and
negotiate hard and finally accept some compromise, it is unlikely that
we would reach a solution that we want.

First and foremost, we should make our case to the world better than
what has occurred so much. Yiannis does not want to hear this but
"Macedonia has always beeing Greek" is just the wrong thing to say
because of the way it is perceived. It is perceived as pure
expansionism although its meaning is different. Greece has done a
very poor job explaining the whole issue to the world. Unless we
start doing it better now, we will find ourselves in a corner soon.

ADR

[gogu]

Post by Anastassios Retzios

Post by Panayiotis
======================================
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================

Post by unknown
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +0200, "Yannis the Macedonian"

.
.

Post by unknown
To believe that FYROM will one
day jettison the "Macedonian" ethnicity and adopt a name such as
Vardarska Republic is laughable to the extreme. It is not happening
not unless we invade that country and impose a solution. Do you think
that we should do it?

ADR,
There are peaceful invasions, too. Ananga ke thei pithonte!
Panayiotis

Well, Panayiotis, if you can describe to me the peaceful invasion that
you have in mind, we may be able to agree. Unfortunately, I think
that Greece's leverage on FYROM is pretty limited. Of course, we
should stay our course, but unless we are prepared to negotiate and
negotiate hard and finally accept some compromise, it is unlikely that
we would reach a solution that we want.
First and foremost, we should make our case to the world better than
what has occurred so much.

The "Invasion" of the Greek culture in Rome:-)))

Post by Anastassios Retzios
Yiannis does not want to hear this but
"Macedonia has always beeing Greek" is just the wrong thing to say
because of the way it is perceived.

Maybe so but nevertheless true!
Macedonians were Hellenes (at least in their major part).
Now on the semantics or on the way how it must be presented, that's a whole
different discussion.

Post by Anastassios Retzios
It is perceived as pure
expansionism although its meaning is different.

Hmmm ... Anastasie, I have *never* heard a Greek politician saying that we
must take back what today is FYROM and similar stupidities!
OTOH, I've heard many empty-heads Skopians saying that their country should
arrive till Larissa!
So I really can't see how it can be perceived as expansionism!

Post by Anastassios Retzios
Greece has done a
very poor job explaining the whole issue to the world.

Unfortunately this is true...
Propaganda was never Greece's "forte"...

Post by Anastassios Retzios
Unless we
start doing it better now, we will find ourselves in a corner soon.

Agreed:-)

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"Anastassios Retzios" <***@home.com> wrote:
.....................................................

Post by Anastassios Retzios
First and foremost, we should make our case to the world better than
what has occurred so much. Yiannis does not want to hear this but
"Macedonia has always beeing Greek" is just the wrong thing to say
because of the way it is perceived. It is perceived as pure
expansionism although its meaning is different. Greece has done a
very poor job explaining the whole issue to the world. Unless we
start doing it better now, we will find ourselves in a corner soon.
ADR

MacedoniaNS were always Greeks !
Tasos once again distorts my words.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"bt" <***@bitola.i-p.com> wrote:
...............................

Vardarska? are you for real, Vardar is a river in Macedonia. The name is
Republic of Macedonia, and will not be changed just because you have a
problem.
Bitola, Republic of Macedonia

Get real.
Prepare your people to enter in EU.
It is already one Macedonia there. No other Macedonia will ever be allowed
to enter.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

[Yannis the Macedonian]

"bt" <***@bitola.i-p.com> wrote:
............................................

It is fully accurate. Many countries on earth have the name of their
capital city.
SlavoSkopians are Slavs living around Skopje and in Skopje.
It is desirable as long as SlavoSkopians have not an accurate name,

that

is a name that not contains the term Macedonian.
It should be desirable even by themselves if they wouldn't violate our
Macedonians' right over an exclusive tribal name. We simply don't want

to

share our tribal name with any non-Greek. Thus no Macedonia for the
SlavoSkopians.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece

Macedonia will never be Greece, you can on and on as long as you like,

but

take one thing for certain Macedonian's will not and will never be

Greek.

Thus, no Macedonia for Greece.

Macedonia is already in Greece's hugs and what is out of Greece is only a
small part of historic Macedonia, that is Pelagonia.
Skopje never was in Macedonia. Skopje was Dardanian capital and Veles
Peonian one.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece